Are we crushing the patriarchy or giving in to materialism?
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Title : Are we crushing the patriarchy or giving in to materialism?
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Title : Are we crushing the patriarchy or giving in to materialism?
link : Are we crushing the patriarchy or giving in to materialism?
news-today.world | Hi there! As a follow up to the last post I did, I am going to continue my chat with my Singaporean female friend 'Ms Chua' on some of the issues raised and the responses we have had about the local woman who got flamed online for having a Tinder profile where she stated that she only wanted to date European guys. I do have my opinions on the issue of course but as a man I didn't want to be accused of mansplaining the issue to my readers, hence that's why this chat with my friend is a good solution for us to discuss the issue whilst properly accounting for the female point of view here.
Alex: Now leaving aside the nasty attacks this woman got for her Tinder profile, there is the accusation that local women are materialistic when it comes to dating local men - they want to know how much you earn, where you work, what your job title is, if you have a car, if you already own property etc and they expect the men to pay for everything on dates. Is that a fair accusation? Are local women like that? Furthermore, would it be fair to label such behaviour as materialism?
Ms Chua: Yes and no! No matter where you go in the world, in any country on any continent, you are going to find women who are out looking for a rich man. You may label them are materialistic or gold-diggers, but it is almost like a business transaction. They think they can cash in on their good looks and marry a rich man, so they will instantly become rich. The most obvious example is Donald Trump - just look at his wife Melania, it says everything. But on top of that, Trump has two ex-wives: Ivana Trump and Marla Maples. Each time his wife got old, he divorced her and traded her in for a younger one. Plenty of rock stars do the same shit - take Rod Stewart for example, two ex-wives and currently married to a young woman, just like Trump. Sure you can look at the women in these marriages and get all misogynistic, claiming that it is the women who are shallow and will gladly marry an ugly old man just for money, but what about the creepy old men who divorce their wives and marry a younger woman? How is that any less immoral or disgusting? Why do people always want to blame the woman when really, the creepy old men is just as much to blame in such cases?
Alex: Yup, I know of plenty of cases like that even in the world I move in.
Ms Chua: What, you mean on the gay scene?
Alex: Actually no, we're talking about in banking. There's this English expat banker who worked in Singapore, KL and Manila for a while. When I first got to know him in Singapore, he was happily married with a British wife. Fast forward about ten years, they're divorced and his new Asian wife is a lot younger. We just talk business most of the time, I keep it formal, I don't pry into his personal life but when I found out, I just rolled my eyes. Then there's this other investment banker I know, much older, in his 70s and same story, two white ex-wives and his current wife is Thai - the current wife is younger than his oldest daughter from his first marriage. How's that any different from Donald Trump and Rod Stewart? You know it is frustrating for me, how the white guy is always the older man and the Asian wife is always playing the role of the gold digger - that's why I think for many of us, the story of Mei Aisi was refreshing. He was the older Chinese guy, who went to Ukraine and married a stunningly beautiful opera singer when she was just 18 years old and now he has set up a dating agency to help rich Chinese men find beautiful Eastern European brides. Okay, I accept that's a whole different kind of creepy but at least this man did turn that stereotype on its head, albeit in a place like Eastern Ukraine.
Ms Chua: It is a free world, maybe we don't like what they do, maybe we will never do what they do, maybe we have a different concept of how love and marriage should function, but they're not doing anything illegal. It's just consenting adults choosing to get married and their relationships are somewhat unconventional. The point is that if rich men are not willing to use their wealth to get beautiful women, then there wouldn't be this kind of relationships in the first place. It takes two hands to clap when you get a relationship where money plays such a big part, where it is more like a business transaction rather than true love. Divorce was quite a taboo amongst people of my parents' generation and I'd like to believe that people are more open minded these days, that they have at least updated their social attitudes for 2018.
Alex: Well let's put it this way: if you're rich, then you have two options. You can either pursue true love the romantic way and find your soul mate to settle down with, or you can just use your money and privilege to find someone beautiful who is willing to be with you in exchange for your wealth. Plenty of gold diggers around for rich guys. If you're rather poor, then well, you only have that first option open to you and I can't help but feel that there is an element of jealousy.
Ms Chua: In what way? Care to elaborate?
Alex: Yeah, like the rich guys will automatically have women flocking to them, even when they are married. Whilst the poor guys will have to go out of their way to woo women. Maybe if the poor guys are good looking, then yeah at least that's a good start. But imagine if a guy is poor and ugly at the same time, good grief. So, where do you go from there?
Ms Chua: It's called the 'friend zone'. Yeah I have this friend I have known for a long time - you know, he's a nice guy but he's not boyfriend material. He doesn't earn that much money, he doesn't look that handsome and that's putting it mildly. Like he has really bad teeth and skin, plus the glasses he wears. I'm just wondering if there's anyone in his life who knows him well enough to say, "look we need to do something about your appearance". He dresses like your typical Singaporean taxi-driver uncle and I even feel bad describing him like that as he's a really nice, sincere, genuine guy. If you were blind or at least had really bad eyesight and couldn't see all that, then he would make the perfect boyfriend. He's intelligent, funny, always there for you but unfortunately he's always going to be considered 'not boyfriend material'.
Alex: Wait, is he rich or not?
Ms Chua: That's the problem. No. He isn't. He lives at home with his parents.
Alex: Ah. I can see the problem.
Ms Chua: Yeah. So women like me would 'friend zone' him, we're friendly with him but we automatically rule him out from a romantic point of view because of a variety of factors. We won't mock him, we won't be cruel but we'll just never date someone like that. It starts with the looks for me, I'm sorry but I'm only attracted to good looking guys. You know, good looking by conventional standards, it's not like my criteria is unreasonable - I say my standards are pretty reasonable.
Alex: No, no please don't apologize. It's your right to have your own criteria.
Ms Chua: Yeah but people would accuse me of being shallow for saying no to my ugly but nice friend and I suppose if I was older, fatter, uglier, then I wouldn't have as much 'bargaining power' on the dating scene, then my standards would come down according to what I think I can get. It reminds me of the process we go through when shopping for a new place to live - my brother just bought a new place recently, a lovely condo. I was involved in helping him narrow down the choices, he identified about four or five places him and his wife liked and it was then a process of elimination. Like, one of them was stunning but quite inconvenient for public transport as it was not hear an MRT station - like without a car, you're totally stuffed. Another one was quite a good price, but you compromised in terms of size. Then there's one which was quite a bit older, but in a really good location - his wife didn't want to live in such an old building, she wanted something newer. You get the idea, there wasn't one perfect choice that stood out but every single one on that short list were all pretty good options. The prices varied a bit amongst the options and since they were only going to buy that one property to live in, they had a hard time trying to pick the best one, which is fair enough. It's the same thing for me when choosing a husband, I only need one life partner you know - so why should I compromise or lower my standards?
Alex: In the case of your house hunting analogy, we all want a good deal. I have been through this process many times myself, so for example, when I bought my current house I had a budget in mind and then it was a question of me trying to see what I could get within that budget. I did see a place which was absolutely stunning but it was more than what I could afford. Like I could only find about 70% of the asking price even exhausting every single option and I decided it was out of my reach but then I just moved on to try to find something else within my budget. I suppose we're doing the same thing when we're looking for a partner - I think in our heads, we know what we're worth and what we can get. Nobody wants to be shortchanged, we all want the best possibly deal we can get with what we have, right? So I suppose in the case of your nice but ugly friend whom you've friend zoned, you think that you will be shortchanged if you settled down with him and that's why you're going to say no. It's the same way I saw this other flat when I was house hunting, it wasn't bad and it was within my budget but when I took into account the asking price and what I thought it was worth, I walked away because I didn't think it was a good deal. Perhaps it's the kiasu concept at play here, nobody wants a bad deal, right?
Liz: But... aren't we being rather shallow, even materialistic when we talk about relationships in these terms then?
Alex: True, but I am merely telling you what I am observing and being honest about it. I think there's nothing wrong with looking for a good deal, of understanding this concept of value. Now, I really like shopping online, I do go on Amazon and eBay all the time to look at interesting items for sale, quirky things that I probably will not be able to get in a shop on the high street here in London. I will place a bid if I see something I like and then sometimes, we get into a bidding war as the auction draws to a close but I will always have a price in my head, the maximum I am willing to pay for that item and if the bids exceed that price, then I will gladly walk away from the auction. A lot of that depends on availability, say if the price I have in my head is £100 just to pick a round number, that's the maximum I am willing to pay - how I arrived at that number will depend on whether or not I think I can get a similar item of a similar quality for around £100. Maybe I can't get something like that for £50 or even £75, but I know I can at £100 - that's the same mindset we apply when we go looking for a date on those dating apps. We know what we can get after we set a 'value' on what we are worth in our heads. But of course, some people do suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect and overestimate what they are worth.
Liz: What do you mean by that?
Alex: Well, in this context, people become fixated on what they want, rather than what they can afford. It happens a lot in life - let me give you an analogy: six years ago, I spent an evening with a group of young people, I went to a gig on my own and made some friends there. These young men all had good ideas about what they would like to do with their careers, they had big dreams but no plans: they were all unemployed and graduates from universities at the wrong end of the league table. Some of them were doing part-time jobs at minimum wage just to make ends meet and of course, they weren't happy about the situation. There was a huge mismatch between what they would ideally like to be doing for a career and what they are currently able to get. As I didn't know them well enough, I didn't want to start telling them what they ought to do to get to where they were, I had literally just met them, mind you. Clearly, they needed to get the right training, the right work experience and internships to overcome the fact that they had a degree from a bad university, there's a lot that can be done but they need to start by recognizing that they're not going to be able to find their perfect job tomorrow if they don't radically change something to improve their chances. Did any of them actually talk about what they needed to do to improve their situation? Nope, I think they were in denial about just how challenging their situation was and that was a Pandora's box I was not going to open, no! Well, they didn't ask me for help anyway.
Now the same thing can apply when it comes to dating and that's where the Chinese expression 癞蛤蟆想吃天鹅肉comes from: it literally means a toad wishing to eat the swan's flesh, it is an expression used to describe a person craving for something he isn't worthy of. It sounds like quite a harsh derogatory phrase, but it merely describes a situation where there is a mismatch in expectations and reality of what one can afford, what one can get - such as in the case study of the young people I met at the gig as described above. Note that this phrase is not a sexist one and can be used with both men and women: it merely describes a situation where one is so fixated on what one desires without thinking about what they can actually get. Going back to my house hunting analogy, I was shown two absolutely stunning houses during my house hunting period, both were grossly out of my budget by a long way. But it was in the right neighbourhood where I was looking and I thought, yeah why the hell not and it was fun looking at the beautiful houses that I couldn't afford because just for a moment, I was imagining what it was like to be able to live in a house like that. The estate agent was probably hoping that I'd like it so much I'll somehow find the money - I did put in a ridiculously low bid which which worked out to be 83.5% of the original asking price and of course, that was rejected. I did know my bid was a bit of a joke that they probably wouldn't take seriously and eventually I settled for my current place which was within my budget.
Ms Chua: If I may be blunt, that sounds like a typical autistic person and you should be able to recognize that being autistic yourself. That's simply someone who is refusing to take into account anyone else's point of view, only looking at the situation from their own point of view, that's why they are unable to figure out why they are going wrong or can't get the desired result. It wouldn't be that hard for those young unemployed graduates to have spoken to you to get some career advice from you, you're a friendly guy who was clearly happy to chat but they weren't asking you, were they?
Alex: Oh yeah, I understand totally. Like I come from the most autistic family in Singapore. You're totally right.
Ms Chua: I remember there was this guy at my university plucked up the courage and asked the most beautiful girl in the department out on a date, she politely made an excuse to say no like, "oh my auntie from Ipoh is in town and I'm busy playing tour guide all weekend, sorry!" On one hand, you have to admire his guts; on the other hand, we all knew she was never going to say yes. Was he just totally autistic or was he aware of the odds but still took a gamble? I guess that's not unlike the way you put in a bid for that house you knew you couldn't afford, but you tried anyway because there was a one in a million chance that the sellers may have been desperate enough to get their hands on the cash for something urgent and have accepted your bid or at least settled for a price within your budget. The sellers knew what they could potentially get for that property you looked at and they weren't prepared to be shortchanged at this in this case, so they held out for another buyer, someone willing to pay more. I don't think there's any harm in people trying their luck sometimes, but there needs to be some kind of balance at the end of the day. You know those talent show auditions, where people who really can't sing have those disastrous auditions in front of the judges who just laugh them out of the room? Clearly, these people will just get immortalized on Youtube as the idiots who made a fool of themselves on TV.
Alex: So turning back to the process of finding someone to date, someone to settle down with - are we all guilty of aiming too high? Does this have anything to do with our modern culture, where we watch all these movies and TV shows that shape our perception about what love should be about, about what kind of relationships we want to have, about the kind of people we want to settle down with. I can see that from my parents' generation, people weren't that fussy - they had much lower expectations but now, people want a lot more and are far less willing to compromise. In terms of the local Singaporean women being a lot more demanding, are they being materialistic or have their standards simply been so low in the past that they are merely making a logistical adjustment that's long overdue, to ask for more in a relationship?
Ms Chua: We inhabit a world that is vastly different from the one that our parents inhabited. Our parents got married back in the 1960s and the world was a very different place back then, so of course they had different criteria, a completely different mindset when it came to picking a partner for marriage. Take the aspirations of women for example: for our mothers, they were not as well educated as their male counterparts and they were brought up to believe that their role in society is to become good wives and mothers, if they worked, that was merely to chip in and help with the family income, to be able to afford better things for the family rather than any reflection of personal ambition. Women who actually did manage to have careers then were labelled 女强人 (superwoman) and the irony is that I remember my mother labeling this neighbour we had as a 女强人; was she some kind of CEO or MD, managing a vast business empire? Nope far from it, she was some kind of office manager in a big company, the company itself was prestigious but my neighbour wasn't particularly senior at all and I doubt she earned that much. But the fact that she was dressed up in smart office attire every morning, left the house with a mission to go to work on time made my mother label her as a 女强人. By today's standards, you'll need to be a lot more than an office manager to earn that title - the world is quite a different place today.
What does irk me is the way some men think that just because you're a woman who chooses to delay marriage or not to get married at all, that somehow we're either too demanding, too materialistic or there's something wrong with us just because we don't have a husband in our lives. That's extremely sexist, a very patriarchal way of viewing the world, that a woman's role in life must ultimately be that of a wife and mother, whilst I don't agree with that - a woman can be a president, a prime minister, a leader, a wealthy tycoon, a rock star, a Noble prize winning scientist, a successful story without being defined by the institution of marriage. I believe that it is better to remain single and not get married if you can't find the right person to settle down with. I have this family friend, an older lady, let's call her Anna (not her real name): her husband is a loser, a real pessimist who blames everyone but himself for the failures in his life. It's a miserable marriage, she's holding the whole thing together by a thread whilst waiting for the children to grow up and then it'll probably end in a divorce. She married this loser because her family pressured her into settling down before she got too old to have children, the guy was there and she wasn't really in love but felt that it was a "now or never" situation. Her parents thought she was too old to find another man in her mid-30s, she didn't want to miss the last train out of that station so she got married. Now she's so miserable and regretting her mistake everyday. A lot of people pour scorn on older single women, label them as 'old maids' destined to a lonely life: but look at Anna. Is she happy? No. Far from it.
Alex: I think that in this case, it is a reflection on some sections of society not evolving as fast as others. Anna's case also highlights the role parents play when it comes to putting pressure on adults to settle down and get married before they get too old, certainly before their 40s. But is there a big correlation between the much higher expectations of Singaporean women these days and the amount of hard work they and their parents have invested in their education? It has delayed their marriage by a few years at least, back in our parents' generation, they got married in their 20s whereas young people in their 20s these days want to focus on their careers, have some fun rather than think about settling down.
Ms Chua: Inevitably, yes. Let's not pretend that there isn't a stigma for single women over a certain age, there still is but it is a lot less than a generation ago. If I were to look at it purely from a business point of view, the more you invest into a project, the more you would charge for it. By the same token, modern women have invested so much in their education, their bodies, their careers, is it any wonder that they are asking a lot more given how their self-worth and self-esteems are so much higher than their counterparts from a generation ago? It's not like they don't want to get married or settle down, they just have higher standards when it comes to enforcing quality control in this aspect. Anna's story is a warning about what will happen if you do decide to compromise - it will not bring you happiness if you settle down with someone under the wrong circumstances. I don't know how she copes, really. She's so unhappy, but she focuses her energy on her children to distract herself from her miserable loser of a husband. I don't know why she hasn't divorced him already.
Alex: Moving on, can I ask you to respond to this comment from one of my readers, "those single women are probably where they are because they can't find a rich and handsome guy stupid enough to settle for their wrinkly old ass."
Ms Chua: Well that's clearly a sexist comment. We all get wrinkly and old one day and so will he. It's this hideously sexist attitude about, "hey woman, get married quickly before your boobs start to sag and your vagina goes out of shape, otherwise no man will want you." It is this terribly outdated concept of the man liking the woman for her looks, her perky tits; what kind of relationship is that? Well we all know that physical appearances don't last forever, not without a huge amount of expensive plastic surgery. And in any case, for most people, that's not what marriage is about - it should be about settling down with someone you are truly in love with, who is your soul mate, whom you share such a deep connection with that you want to spend the rest of your life with. Otherwise, you just end up like Rod Stewart and Donald Trump, oh look the wife has gone old and wrinkly, let's divorce and trade her in for a younger model. Well you wanna talk about wrinkly old ass, that sounds like both Rod Stewart and Donald Trump - they're just rich and that's all they can offer to their wives now. Melania Trump is a beautiful woman, like she can easily find herself a younger and far more good looking husband, but she wants the money and the power from being the first lady of the US. So, is this guy married?
Alex: Actually yes, he is. That much I know.
Ms Chua; Like what will happen when he gets old and wrinkly? What's going to stop his wife from then dumping him and trading him in for a more good looking younger man? Is he as rich as Rod Stewart or Donald Trump?
Alex: Oh, no. He isn't.
Ms Chua: If he wants to judge women this way, I bet he isn't comfortable when we subject him to the same standards.
Alex: Well, the purpose of my blog is to challenge such attitudes.
Ms Chua: Life doesn't always present you with simple, convenient solutions. We don't always meet the man of our dreams, get married and live happily ever after. The fact is most people settle for someone who isn't perfect and make compromises because they are only too aware of their own faults - so marriage is far more about two imperfect people making it work through compromises with a shared desire to make the relationship succeed. For some people, that's good enough because other aspects of their lives have been pretty mediocre and average as well; but for some others they think it isn't. In the past, there has been a lot of stigma about women who choose to remain single because they cannot find the ideal partner - people would label such women 'left on the shelf' or 'old maids', call them 'spinsters'. But a lot of that has got to do with the fact that our parents were worried about two things: firstly, of being destitute in their old age, so they viewed having children as some kind of insurance policy, so there'll be someone to take care of them when they're old. Also, they have this vision that the only thing old people can do is play the part of grandparents and take care of the grandchildren whilst the parents are out at work. Attitudes are changing fast with our generation when it comes to the way we view our own lives, when we get old. The world is changing fast and consequently we need to adapt to it.
Alex: I think we're a lot better with money and a lot of that has got to do with the fact that we've had a much better education than our parents. It's plain stupid to have children just to hope that they may one day support you - when you give birth to a child, you have absolutely no idea whether they will grow up to be rich or end up so destitute you will keep on supporting them till the day you die. I recently covered the story of the man who had seven children and can barely make ends meet - how's he going to support his parents when he is already reliant on charity and government help to make sure his family gets everything they need? Like what if your children goes on to do something stupid like that, to put themselves in a position whereby they are never able to support their parents? No, really the only person you can rely on is yourself: so if you want to have children then by all means go ahead, but don't rely on them to support you in your old age - have a decent pension plan, have enough savings for a comfortable retirement to do the things you enjoy and there's no substitute for sensible financial management. If you don't know how to plan your finances, then for crying out aloud, seek professional advice rather than roll the dice and gamble with having children. That's just so, so stupid.
Ms Chua: Right and as for old age, I think Singaporeans have a lot to learn from their counterparts in the West. I think in Singapore, there is a mix of government propaganda to boost birth rates as well as a very traditional mindset when it comes to the issue of having grandchildren - actually, make that grandsons. It's still a very sexist society in Singapore.
Alex: The key difference in the West is that even if you do have grandchildren, there's no guarantee that you'll even be in the same town or city as them. My mother-in-law in Ireland has three children and two grandchildren - the five of them are spread out over five different locations in the UK. Sure they make the effort to get together for things like birthdays and Christmas, but as they don't live in the same city, she was never involved in the bringing up of the grandchildren quite the same way my parents play a far more active role in caring for my nephew. In fact my mother-in-law spends more time with the children of her neighbours in Ireland than her own children or grandchildren because well, they're there, living on the same road whilst the rest of her family live in another country. In fact I'm going over there to see her next weekend, so it'll be a quiet weekend in the Irish countryside for me. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that my parents are able to help my sister with the burden of child-caring and my sister is a lot more relaxed knowing that her son is in safe hands whilst she's at work. But in the West, older people are happy to keep on focusing on their careers if they continue to find it fulfilling or simply dedicate time to doing the things they enjoy without having the burden of childcare.
I do worry about my parents. For the last 15 years, they've made a big fuss about my nephew, like he is in the center of their universe. When my sister was pregnant, they fussed over her to make sure she had a stress-free pregnancy. When the baby was born, they were like oh it's your first child we're experienced with children, we will help you care for the baby. Then when my nephew was in primary school, they were like oh we were primary school teachers we can help with his education, give him extra lessons at home. But now he's going to be in secondary four next year and his syllabus is way beyond what my parents can handle, so they're reduced to cooking and cleaning for him, but they have a maid in any case, so really my parents don't quite know what to do. I know my dad enjoys spending time with his grandson but the generation gap is so huge - so instead, my dad ends up watching TV for most of the day, only getting up off the sofa to go to the kitchen or the toilet, whilst my nephew would do stuff on his phone. It's kinda frustrating to see them like that, but I don't expect my young nephew to understand how desperate the situation is; I hate to see the way my dad just vegetates on the sofa, his eyes glued on the TV screen, like he's got no other purpose in life. I don't wanna end up like that, I have so many things I'd love to do if I had the time and didn't need to work. Fun stuff, I have a long bucket list.
Ms Chua: That's kinda sad. My dad's like that too and there's nothing we can do to try to change him. I have tried like, "hey dad there's this course, it sounds fun, would you like to do it?" And my dad would be like, "I so old already, go learn for what?" I try to convince him that it's not about learning a skill to make money, but it is to make new friends, socialize, improve yourself, keep your brain healthy and set new challenges for yourself. But he just doesn't see it that way, everything is too much effort, nothing is fun - he just wants to watch TV all day until he falls asleep in front of the TV.
Alex: To bring this discussion to a close, can we try to conclude whether or not this change in women's attitudes towards men and marriage is a big step in feminism, in crushing patriarchy and sexism; or is it merely modern society giving in to not just materialism, but vanity and consumerism then? Which is it? Or could it be an unholy mixture of both elements?
Ms Chua: I'll like to tackle the mindset that all this consumerism, materialism and vanity is all bad - I don't think it is! The world has changed and Singapore is the very showpiece for how capitalism can make a poor country rich and this wealth has done wonders for the standard of living for our generation. My parents are old enough to remember the taste of poverty, they suffered a lot when they were younger when the country was a lot poorer, when wages were a lot lower. Things have come a long way thanks to our success with capitalism, but you cannot expect to change society so radically, so dramatically in a generation and still expect people to have exactly the same mindset when it comes to marriage and love from half a century ago. What is happening is that different sections of the society are evolving at different rates and you're never going to have everyone agree with each other on the issue - the question now is whether or not we can politely agree to disagree like civilized folks, or if it descends into mud-slinging and name-calling which we have seen already in those online forums. It's nasty - instead of learning to listen to each other or challenge opinions in a dignified manner, people just resort to name-calling which is what I would expect of an inarticulate 7 or 8 year old child.
Alex: So we can never have consensus, what would you like to see? What's the best case scenario then for you?
Ms Chua: I'd like to see people become more open-minded, I'd like to see people being less judgmental, being less threatened when they encounter difference. I'd like to see people accept that we're in a rapidly changing world because of the technology and capitalism that we have embraced as a human race, thus let's embrace diversity rather than try to enforce conformity in the internet age. This modern technology has allowed us to reach out through the internet to people from all over the world, as long as they are online too - so moving ahead, we should open our eyes and minds to the many new opportunities that we now have rather than think back about what life used to be like two or three decades ago, before we had the internet, when Singapore was a very different place. You can waste so much time and energy picking fights with people on the internet who don't agree with you and you can come across as an intolerant loser who is uncomfortable with the way the modern world is turning out to be in 2018. And in regards specifically to the attitudes of women changing, I can only roll my eyes and think, duh abuden? Are you seriously expecting us to have the same attitude as in 1988 despite the world having changed so radically in the last 30 years? Get real and get with the agenda. Juts look around you - the world is changing fast whether you like it or not, so the sooner you adapt to 2018, the better.
Alex: Thanks so much for chatting with me again.
Ms Chua: Thank you too for letting me rant!
Alex: Now leaving aside the nasty attacks this woman got for her Tinder profile, there is the accusation that local women are materialistic when it comes to dating local men - they want to know how much you earn, where you work, what your job title is, if you have a car, if you already own property etc and they expect the men to pay for everything on dates. Is that a fair accusation? Are local women like that? Furthermore, would it be fair to label such behaviour as materialism?
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| Are modern women too materialistic as accused? |
Ms Chua: Yes and no! No matter where you go in the world, in any country on any continent, you are going to find women who are out looking for a rich man. You may label them are materialistic or gold-diggers, but it is almost like a business transaction. They think they can cash in on their good looks and marry a rich man, so they will instantly become rich. The most obvious example is Donald Trump - just look at his wife Melania, it says everything. But on top of that, Trump has two ex-wives: Ivana Trump and Marla Maples. Each time his wife got old, he divorced her and traded her in for a younger one. Plenty of rock stars do the same shit - take Rod Stewart for example, two ex-wives and currently married to a young woman, just like Trump. Sure you can look at the women in these marriages and get all misogynistic, claiming that it is the women who are shallow and will gladly marry an ugly old man just for money, but what about the creepy old men who divorce their wives and marry a younger woman? How is that any less immoral or disgusting? Why do people always want to blame the woman when really, the creepy old men is just as much to blame in such cases?
Alex: Yup, I know of plenty of cases like that even in the world I move in.
Ms Chua: What, you mean on the gay scene?
Alex: Actually no, we're talking about in banking. There's this English expat banker who worked in Singapore, KL and Manila for a while. When I first got to know him in Singapore, he was happily married with a British wife. Fast forward about ten years, they're divorced and his new Asian wife is a lot younger. We just talk business most of the time, I keep it formal, I don't pry into his personal life but when I found out, I just rolled my eyes. Then there's this other investment banker I know, much older, in his 70s and same story, two white ex-wives and his current wife is Thai - the current wife is younger than his oldest daughter from his first marriage. How's that any different from Donald Trump and Rod Stewart? You know it is frustrating for me, how the white guy is always the older man and the Asian wife is always playing the role of the gold digger - that's why I think for many of us, the story of Mei Aisi was refreshing. He was the older Chinese guy, who went to Ukraine and married a stunningly beautiful opera singer when she was just 18 years old and now he has set up a dating agency to help rich Chinese men find beautiful Eastern European brides. Okay, I accept that's a whole different kind of creepy but at least this man did turn that stereotype on its head, albeit in a place like Eastern Ukraine.
Ms Chua: It is a free world, maybe we don't like what they do, maybe we will never do what they do, maybe we have a different concept of how love and marriage should function, but they're not doing anything illegal. It's just consenting adults choosing to get married and their relationships are somewhat unconventional. The point is that if rich men are not willing to use their wealth to get beautiful women, then there wouldn't be this kind of relationships in the first place. It takes two hands to clap when you get a relationship where money plays such a big part, where it is more like a business transaction rather than true love. Divorce was quite a taboo amongst people of my parents' generation and I'd like to believe that people are more open minded these days, that they have at least updated their social attitudes for 2018.
Alex: Well let's put it this way: if you're rich, then you have two options. You can either pursue true love the romantic way and find your soul mate to settle down with, or you can just use your money and privilege to find someone beautiful who is willing to be with you in exchange for your wealth. Plenty of gold diggers around for rich guys. If you're rather poor, then well, you only have that first option open to you and I can't help but feel that there is an element of jealousy.
Ms Chua: In what way? Care to elaborate?
Alex: Yeah, like the rich guys will automatically have women flocking to them, even when they are married. Whilst the poor guys will have to go out of their way to woo women. Maybe if the poor guys are good looking, then yeah at least that's a good start. But imagine if a guy is poor and ugly at the same time, good grief. So, where do you go from there?
Ms Chua: It's called the 'friend zone'. Yeah I have this friend I have known for a long time - you know, he's a nice guy but he's not boyfriend material. He doesn't earn that much money, he doesn't look that handsome and that's putting it mildly. Like he has really bad teeth and skin, plus the glasses he wears. I'm just wondering if there's anyone in his life who knows him well enough to say, "look we need to do something about your appearance". He dresses like your typical Singaporean taxi-driver uncle and I even feel bad describing him like that as he's a really nice, sincere, genuine guy. If you were blind or at least had really bad eyesight and couldn't see all that, then he would make the perfect boyfriend. He's intelligent, funny, always there for you but unfortunately he's always going to be considered 'not boyfriend material'.
Alex: Wait, is he rich or not?
Ms Chua: That's the problem. No. He isn't. He lives at home with his parents.
Alex: Ah. I can see the problem.
Ms Chua: Yeah. So women like me would 'friend zone' him, we're friendly with him but we automatically rule him out from a romantic point of view because of a variety of factors. We won't mock him, we won't be cruel but we'll just never date someone like that. It starts with the looks for me, I'm sorry but I'm only attracted to good looking guys. You know, good looking by conventional standards, it's not like my criteria is unreasonable - I say my standards are pretty reasonable.
Alex: No, no please don't apologize. It's your right to have your own criteria.
Ms Chua: Yeah but people would accuse me of being shallow for saying no to my ugly but nice friend and I suppose if I was older, fatter, uglier, then I wouldn't have as much 'bargaining power' on the dating scene, then my standards would come down according to what I think I can get. It reminds me of the process we go through when shopping for a new place to live - my brother just bought a new place recently, a lovely condo. I was involved in helping him narrow down the choices, he identified about four or five places him and his wife liked and it was then a process of elimination. Like, one of them was stunning but quite inconvenient for public transport as it was not hear an MRT station - like without a car, you're totally stuffed. Another one was quite a good price, but you compromised in terms of size. Then there's one which was quite a bit older, but in a really good location - his wife didn't want to live in such an old building, she wanted something newer. You get the idea, there wasn't one perfect choice that stood out but every single one on that short list were all pretty good options. The prices varied a bit amongst the options and since they were only going to buy that one property to live in, they had a hard time trying to pick the best one, which is fair enough. It's the same thing for me when choosing a husband, I only need one life partner you know - so why should I compromise or lower my standards?
Alex: In the case of your house hunting analogy, we all want a good deal. I have been through this process many times myself, so for example, when I bought my current house I had a budget in mind and then it was a question of me trying to see what I could get within that budget. I did see a place which was absolutely stunning but it was more than what I could afford. Like I could only find about 70% of the asking price even exhausting every single option and I decided it was out of my reach but then I just moved on to try to find something else within my budget. I suppose we're doing the same thing when we're looking for a partner - I think in our heads, we know what we're worth and what we can get. Nobody wants to be shortchanged, we all want the best possibly deal we can get with what we have, right? So I suppose in the case of your nice but ugly friend whom you've friend zoned, you think that you will be shortchanged if you settled down with him and that's why you're going to say no. It's the same way I saw this other flat when I was house hunting, it wasn't bad and it was within my budget but when I took into account the asking price and what I thought it was worth, I walked away because I didn't think it was a good deal. Perhaps it's the kiasu concept at play here, nobody wants a bad deal, right?
Liz: But... aren't we being rather shallow, even materialistic when we talk about relationships in these terms then?
Liz: What do you mean by that?
Alex: Well, in this context, people become fixated on what they want, rather than what they can afford. It happens a lot in life - let me give you an analogy: six years ago, I spent an evening with a group of young people, I went to a gig on my own and made some friends there. These young men all had good ideas about what they would like to do with their careers, they had big dreams but no plans: they were all unemployed and graduates from universities at the wrong end of the league table. Some of them were doing part-time jobs at minimum wage just to make ends meet and of course, they weren't happy about the situation. There was a huge mismatch between what they would ideally like to be doing for a career and what they are currently able to get. As I didn't know them well enough, I didn't want to start telling them what they ought to do to get to where they were, I had literally just met them, mind you. Clearly, they needed to get the right training, the right work experience and internships to overcome the fact that they had a degree from a bad university, there's a lot that can be done but they need to start by recognizing that they're not going to be able to find their perfect job tomorrow if they don't radically change something to improve their chances. Did any of them actually talk about what they needed to do to improve their situation? Nope, I think they were in denial about just how challenging their situation was and that was a Pandora's box I was not going to open, no! Well, they didn't ask me for help anyway.
Now the same thing can apply when it comes to dating and that's where the Chinese expression 癞蛤蟆想吃天鹅肉comes from: it literally means a toad wishing to eat the swan's flesh, it is an expression used to describe a person craving for something he isn't worthy of. It sounds like quite a harsh derogatory phrase, but it merely describes a situation where there is a mismatch in expectations and reality of what one can afford, what one can get - such as in the case study of the young people I met at the gig as described above. Note that this phrase is not a sexist one and can be used with both men and women: it merely describes a situation where one is so fixated on what one desires without thinking about what they can actually get. Going back to my house hunting analogy, I was shown two absolutely stunning houses during my house hunting period, both were grossly out of my budget by a long way. But it was in the right neighbourhood where I was looking and I thought, yeah why the hell not and it was fun looking at the beautiful houses that I couldn't afford because just for a moment, I was imagining what it was like to be able to live in a house like that. The estate agent was probably hoping that I'd like it so much I'll somehow find the money - I did put in a ridiculously low bid which which worked out to be 83.5% of the original asking price and of course, that was rejected. I did know my bid was a bit of a joke that they probably wouldn't take seriously and eventually I settled for my current place which was within my budget.
Ms Chua: If I may be blunt, that sounds like a typical autistic person and you should be able to recognize that being autistic yourself. That's simply someone who is refusing to take into account anyone else's point of view, only looking at the situation from their own point of view, that's why they are unable to figure out why they are going wrong or can't get the desired result. It wouldn't be that hard for those young unemployed graduates to have spoken to you to get some career advice from you, you're a friendly guy who was clearly happy to chat but they weren't asking you, were they?
Alex: Oh yeah, I understand totally. Like I come from the most autistic family in Singapore. You're totally right.
Ms Chua: I remember there was this guy at my university plucked up the courage and asked the most beautiful girl in the department out on a date, she politely made an excuse to say no like, "oh my auntie from Ipoh is in town and I'm busy playing tour guide all weekend, sorry!" On one hand, you have to admire his guts; on the other hand, we all knew she was never going to say yes. Was he just totally autistic or was he aware of the odds but still took a gamble? I guess that's not unlike the way you put in a bid for that house you knew you couldn't afford, but you tried anyway because there was a one in a million chance that the sellers may have been desperate enough to get their hands on the cash for something urgent and have accepted your bid or at least settled for a price within your budget. The sellers knew what they could potentially get for that property you looked at and they weren't prepared to be shortchanged at this in this case, so they held out for another buyer, someone willing to pay more. I don't think there's any harm in people trying their luck sometimes, but there needs to be some kind of balance at the end of the day. You know those talent show auditions, where people who really can't sing have those disastrous auditions in front of the judges who just laugh them out of the room? Clearly, these people will just get immortalized on Youtube as the idiots who made a fool of themselves on TV.
Alex: So turning back to the process of finding someone to date, someone to settle down with - are we all guilty of aiming too high? Does this have anything to do with our modern culture, where we watch all these movies and TV shows that shape our perception about what love should be about, about what kind of relationships we want to have, about the kind of people we want to settle down with. I can see that from my parents' generation, people weren't that fussy - they had much lower expectations but now, people want a lot more and are far less willing to compromise. In terms of the local Singaporean women being a lot more demanding, are they being materialistic or have their standards simply been so low in the past that they are merely making a logistical adjustment that's long overdue, to ask for more in a relationship?
Ms Chua: We inhabit a world that is vastly different from the one that our parents inhabited. Our parents got married back in the 1960s and the world was a very different place back then, so of course they had different criteria, a completely different mindset when it came to picking a partner for marriage. Take the aspirations of women for example: for our mothers, they were not as well educated as their male counterparts and they were brought up to believe that their role in society is to become good wives and mothers, if they worked, that was merely to chip in and help with the family income, to be able to afford better things for the family rather than any reflection of personal ambition. Women who actually did manage to have careers then were labelled 女强人 (superwoman) and the irony is that I remember my mother labeling this neighbour we had as a 女强人; was she some kind of CEO or MD, managing a vast business empire? Nope far from it, she was some kind of office manager in a big company, the company itself was prestigious but my neighbour wasn't particularly senior at all and I doubt she earned that much. But the fact that she was dressed up in smart office attire every morning, left the house with a mission to go to work on time made my mother label her as a 女强人. By today's standards, you'll need to be a lot more than an office manager to earn that title - the world is quite a different place today.
Alex: I think that in this case, it is a reflection on some sections of society not evolving as fast as others. Anna's case also highlights the role parents play when it comes to putting pressure on adults to settle down and get married before they get too old, certainly before their 40s. But is there a big correlation between the much higher expectations of Singaporean women these days and the amount of hard work they and their parents have invested in their education? It has delayed their marriage by a few years at least, back in our parents' generation, they got married in their 20s whereas young people in their 20s these days want to focus on their careers, have some fun rather than think about settling down.
Ms Chua: Inevitably, yes. Let's not pretend that there isn't a stigma for single women over a certain age, there still is but it is a lot less than a generation ago. If I were to look at it purely from a business point of view, the more you invest into a project, the more you would charge for it. By the same token, modern women have invested so much in their education, their bodies, their careers, is it any wonder that they are asking a lot more given how their self-worth and self-esteems are so much higher than their counterparts from a generation ago? It's not like they don't want to get married or settle down, they just have higher standards when it comes to enforcing quality control in this aspect. Anna's story is a warning about what will happen if you do decide to compromise - it will not bring you happiness if you settle down with someone under the wrong circumstances. I don't know how she copes, really. She's so unhappy, but she focuses her energy on her children to distract herself from her miserable loser of a husband. I don't know why she hasn't divorced him already.
Alex: Moving on, can I ask you to respond to this comment from one of my readers, "those single women are probably where they are because they can't find a rich and handsome guy stupid enough to settle for their wrinkly old ass."
Ms Chua: Well that's clearly a sexist comment. We all get wrinkly and old one day and so will he. It's this hideously sexist attitude about, "hey woman, get married quickly before your boobs start to sag and your vagina goes out of shape, otherwise no man will want you." It is this terribly outdated concept of the man liking the woman for her looks, her perky tits; what kind of relationship is that? Well we all know that physical appearances don't last forever, not without a huge amount of expensive plastic surgery. And in any case, for most people, that's not what marriage is about - it should be about settling down with someone you are truly in love with, who is your soul mate, whom you share such a deep connection with that you want to spend the rest of your life with. Otherwise, you just end up like Rod Stewart and Donald Trump, oh look the wife has gone old and wrinkly, let's divorce and trade her in for a younger model. Well you wanna talk about wrinkly old ass, that sounds like both Rod Stewart and Donald Trump - they're just rich and that's all they can offer to their wives now. Melania Trump is a beautiful woman, like she can easily find herself a younger and far more good looking husband, but she wants the money and the power from being the first lady of the US. So, is this guy married?
Alex: Actually yes, he is. That much I know.
Ms Chua; Like what will happen when he gets old and wrinkly? What's going to stop his wife from then dumping him and trading him in for a more good looking younger man? Is he as rich as Rod Stewart or Donald Trump?
Alex: Oh, no. He isn't.
Ms Chua: If he wants to judge women this way, I bet he isn't comfortable when we subject him to the same standards.
Alex: Well, the purpose of my blog is to challenge such attitudes.
Ms Chua: Life doesn't always present you with simple, convenient solutions. We don't always meet the man of our dreams, get married and live happily ever after. The fact is most people settle for someone who isn't perfect and make compromises because they are only too aware of their own faults - so marriage is far more about two imperfect people making it work through compromises with a shared desire to make the relationship succeed. For some people, that's good enough because other aspects of their lives have been pretty mediocre and average as well; but for some others they think it isn't. In the past, there has been a lot of stigma about women who choose to remain single because they cannot find the ideal partner - people would label such women 'left on the shelf' or 'old maids', call them 'spinsters'. But a lot of that has got to do with the fact that our parents were worried about two things: firstly, of being destitute in their old age, so they viewed having children as some kind of insurance policy, so there'll be someone to take care of them when they're old. Also, they have this vision that the only thing old people can do is play the part of grandparents and take care of the grandchildren whilst the parents are out at work. Attitudes are changing fast with our generation when it comes to the way we view our own lives, when we get old. The world is changing fast and consequently we need to adapt to it.
Alex: I think we're a lot better with money and a lot of that has got to do with the fact that we've had a much better education than our parents. It's plain stupid to have children just to hope that they may one day support you - when you give birth to a child, you have absolutely no idea whether they will grow up to be rich or end up so destitute you will keep on supporting them till the day you die. I recently covered the story of the man who had seven children and can barely make ends meet - how's he going to support his parents when he is already reliant on charity and government help to make sure his family gets everything they need? Like what if your children goes on to do something stupid like that, to put themselves in a position whereby they are never able to support their parents? No, really the only person you can rely on is yourself: so if you want to have children then by all means go ahead, but don't rely on them to support you in your old age - have a decent pension plan, have enough savings for a comfortable retirement to do the things you enjoy and there's no substitute for sensible financial management. If you don't know how to plan your finances, then for crying out aloud, seek professional advice rather than roll the dice and gamble with having children. That's just so, so stupid.
Ms Chua: Right and as for old age, I think Singaporeans have a lot to learn from their counterparts in the West. I think in Singapore, there is a mix of government propaganda to boost birth rates as well as a very traditional mindset when it comes to the issue of having grandchildren - actually, make that grandsons. It's still a very sexist society in Singapore.
Alex: The key difference in the West is that even if you do have grandchildren, there's no guarantee that you'll even be in the same town or city as them. My mother-in-law in Ireland has three children and two grandchildren - the five of them are spread out over five different locations in the UK. Sure they make the effort to get together for things like birthdays and Christmas, but as they don't live in the same city, she was never involved in the bringing up of the grandchildren quite the same way my parents play a far more active role in caring for my nephew. In fact my mother-in-law spends more time with the children of her neighbours in Ireland than her own children or grandchildren because well, they're there, living on the same road whilst the rest of her family live in another country. In fact I'm going over there to see her next weekend, so it'll be a quiet weekend in the Irish countryside for me. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that my parents are able to help my sister with the burden of child-caring and my sister is a lot more relaxed knowing that her son is in safe hands whilst she's at work. But in the West, older people are happy to keep on focusing on their careers if they continue to find it fulfilling or simply dedicate time to doing the things they enjoy without having the burden of childcare.
I do worry about my parents. For the last 15 years, they've made a big fuss about my nephew, like he is in the center of their universe. When my sister was pregnant, they fussed over her to make sure she had a stress-free pregnancy. When the baby was born, they were like oh it's your first child we're experienced with children, we will help you care for the baby. Then when my nephew was in primary school, they were like oh we were primary school teachers we can help with his education, give him extra lessons at home. But now he's going to be in secondary four next year and his syllabus is way beyond what my parents can handle, so they're reduced to cooking and cleaning for him, but they have a maid in any case, so really my parents don't quite know what to do. I know my dad enjoys spending time with his grandson but the generation gap is so huge - so instead, my dad ends up watching TV for most of the day, only getting up off the sofa to go to the kitchen or the toilet, whilst my nephew would do stuff on his phone. It's kinda frustrating to see them like that, but I don't expect my young nephew to understand how desperate the situation is; I hate to see the way my dad just vegetates on the sofa, his eyes glued on the TV screen, like he's got no other purpose in life. I don't wanna end up like that, I have so many things I'd love to do if I had the time and didn't need to work. Fun stuff, I have a long bucket list.
Ms Chua: That's kinda sad. My dad's like that too and there's nothing we can do to try to change him. I have tried like, "hey dad there's this course, it sounds fun, would you like to do it?" And my dad would be like, "I so old already, go learn for what?" I try to convince him that it's not about learning a skill to make money, but it is to make new friends, socialize, improve yourself, keep your brain healthy and set new challenges for yourself. But he just doesn't see it that way, everything is too much effort, nothing is fun - he just wants to watch TV all day until he falls asleep in front of the TV.
Alex: To bring this discussion to a close, can we try to conclude whether or not this change in women's attitudes towards men and marriage is a big step in feminism, in crushing patriarchy and sexism; or is it merely modern society giving in to not just materialism, but vanity and consumerism then? Which is it? Or could it be an unholy mixture of both elements?
Alex: So we can never have consensus, what would you like to see? What's the best case scenario then for you?
Ms Chua: I'd like to see people become more open-minded, I'd like to see people being less judgmental, being less threatened when they encounter difference. I'd like to see people accept that we're in a rapidly changing world because of the technology and capitalism that we have embraced as a human race, thus let's embrace diversity rather than try to enforce conformity in the internet age. This modern technology has allowed us to reach out through the internet to people from all over the world, as long as they are online too - so moving ahead, we should open our eyes and minds to the many new opportunities that we now have rather than think back about what life used to be like two or three decades ago, before we had the internet, when Singapore was a very different place. You can waste so much time and energy picking fights with people on the internet who don't agree with you and you can come across as an intolerant loser who is uncomfortable with the way the modern world is turning out to be in 2018. And in regards specifically to the attitudes of women changing, I can only roll my eyes and think, duh abuden? Are you seriously expecting us to have the same attitude as in 1988 despite the world having changed so radically in the last 30 years? Get real and get with the agenda. Juts look around you - the world is changing fast whether you like it or not, so the sooner you adapt to 2018, the better.
Alex: Thanks so much for chatting with me again.
Ms Chua: Thank you too for letting me rant!
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